Thursday, July 22, 2010

The "Theology of the Body" Debate

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21 Comments:

Blogger Procopius said...

What is most striking is Dr. Hildebrands learned and gentle charity. Never was an intellectual smackdown so sweet and clement! Dietrich would be (is) proud!

12:01 AM  
Anonymous love the girls said...

Alice Von Hildebrand writes : "My general criticism of Christopher West is that he does not seem to grasp the delicacy, reverence, privacy, and sacredness of the sexual sphere. He also underestimates the effects of Original Sin on the human condition."

Delicacy?
Reverence?
Sacredness?

That is plain nonsense which could only have been written, or taken seriously, in our modern culture of eviscerated manhood where men are reduced to oh so sensitive milktoasts.

3:26 AM  
Anonymous love the girls said...

Marriage is difficult enough with absurd expectations which simply are not going to be met, and where the annulment scandal is the inevitable outcome because duty is suppressed beneath delusions of romance which are rarely satisfied.

3:41 AM  
Blogger Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

Okay, LTG, I'll bite! What would your three adjectives be, Mr. Man? =P

11:10 AM  
Blogger The Western Confucian said...

"No es por vicio, ni por fornicio, sino para dar un hijo a tu servicio."

11:58 AM  
Anonymous love the girls said...

Enbrethiliel,

Hildebrand's 'adjectives' are a super naturalization of the natural.

Adjectives which say much about her own marriage bed, her Platonism, and her being a creature of the latest trends in theology. But which say nothing about what is actually occurring.
______________

"It is no vice, nor fornication, but to give a child to your service"

Is what my translator comes up with.

1:55 PM  
Blogger Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

Oh, I wasn't trying to argue with you. I was just wondering how you would describe it.

3:25 PM  
Blogger love the girls said...

Enbrethiliel,

Of course not, nor were you necessarily agreeing, so I thought it best to explain my reasoning.

A reasoning which in turn would lead to descriptive words which reflect what actually occurs, not some romanticized disembodied platonic idealism which mistakes the natural for the super natural.

Here's four descriptive words:

Pleasure
Means
Duty
Love

Pleasurable, with all that that encompasses, because that is the primary reason there are lots of babies born each year. With women likewise looking on it as duty and means of obtaining babies. With women giving of themselves as a sign of love.

10:14 PM  
Blogger Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

I'm still not arguing or anything--because if anything, this is funny to me--but now it feels very "He Said/She Said." LOL!

12:56 AM  
Blogger love the girls said...

Whatever turns you on.

Unfortunately, the the real life consequences are far from humorous.

2:18 AM  
Blogger Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

LTG: So would you say that Dr. Alice von Hildebrand's refutation might be as confusing--if not more confusing--that West's teachings?

4:05 AM  
Blogger love the girls said...

Enbrethiliel,

As far as her differences with West are concerned, what Alice von Hildebrand objects to is what was standard Catholic teaching, sans the "both feel love and respected" addition. To wit:

"Dietrich would have vigorously opposed Popcak's so-called ”one rule”--that married couples “may do whatever they wish,” as long as they don’t use contraception, “both feel loved and respected,” and the marital act culminates within the woman"

She may find it vulgar but that one rule is what was taught in the seminaries back when priest were trained to be pastors.

Alice von Hidebrands complaint of books is actually a complaint which turns against her because she is the one who like some many others who attempt to turn sex into a spiritual exercise where lengthy discourses on the subject are required.

Sex and babies are really pretty simple, and God made them that way so that the most simple could get it right.

5:41 AM  
Blogger Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

So her problem now is that she has taken aim at (what she perceives as) West's vularity rather than any actual errors?

3:28 AM  
Blogger love the girls said...

Enbrethiliel,

Initial post did not concern West, and to have done so would have added an unnecessary complication.

So it is not a matter of 'now', since I did not intend to include West, and did so only because you brought him into the discussion.

Further, it's rather clear from the text that Alice von Hildebrand objects to Popcak's rule, so that while she does object to a perceived vulgarity, she likewise makes the error of attributing to Popkac a rule which is not his. A rule handed down in the seminaries to priests so that they could in turn give good guidance to those who are married.

5:07 AM  
Blogger Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

Well, Joshua's post identifies Dr. von Hildebrand's essay as an analysis of West and that is how everyone is reading it now, so I just considered your issue with her adjectives to be in the same context.

But what you're saying is that all you had (before I blew it out of proportion) was a general objection to the terms and all they imply?

6:17 AM  
Blogger love the girls said...

Enbrethiliel writes : "was a general objection to the terms and all they imply?"

Yes. Especially because West and von Hildebrand are for all practical purposes indistinguishable in their super naturalization of the natural.

Both have bought into the same nonsense. Just as many others have bought into its counterpart of naturalizing the supernatural.

6:50 AM  
Blogger Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

Don't kill me now, but when I asked you what three adjectives/words you would put in place of hers, it had nothing to do with West, either.

7:15 AM  
Blogger love the girls said...

That depends. Since they are secretly united by a great mass of common assumptions, I suppose I could have virtually just as easily have written the same about West. But I certainly didn't write it as defense of West because I see him as just as much in error when taking the subject as a whole.

When looking at argument like this I often think back to this:

"Nothing strikes me more when I read the controversies of past ages than the fact that both sides were usually assuming without question a good deal which we should now absolutely deny. They thought that they were as completely opposed as two sides could be, but in fact they were all the time secretly united—united with each other and against earlier and later ages—by a great mass of common assumptions."

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm#ch_0

7:49 AM  
Blogger elena maria vidal said...

I was very impressed by Dr. von Hildebrand's critique, learned and gentle, indeed. For anyone to try to guess the nature of the intimate, private side of someone's marriage is the exact kind of vulgarity that Dr. von Hildebrand decries in Mr. West's crass and banal approach.

9:03 AM  
Blogger The Western Confucian said...

If, as I think it is, it is as simple as "Popcak's so-called 'one rule'--that married couples 'may do whatever they wish,' as long as they don’t use contraception, 'both feel loved and respected,' and the marital act culminates within the woman,'" then Christopher West should find another job.

3:44 AM  
Blogger love the girls said...

Western Confucian writes : "If . . it is as simple as "Popcak's so-called 'one rule'-- . . . then Christopher West should find another job."

Agreed. West, like many professional Catholics, preys on a consumerist society where the simple has been repackaged into an inscrutable complexity, and then selling guide books to penetrate the impenetrable.

Sex, like birthing and raising babies, doesn't require entire third party industries. And in fact those industries are a parasitic hindrance.

4:39 AM  

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